VENT TOPIC CAUTION: THE WAR BETWEEN WHITE WOMEN/BLACK WOMEN

[Chocolatesmoothie]

here is an article from a white woman feminist who sees the same thing i do in terms of treatment of bw and i think she articulates it very well.


Black Women Matter, Too : http://redneckfeminist.blogspot.com/2005/05/black-women-matter-too.html


Someone made a comment recently on Adam Ash's blog that got me thinking. The commenter said, "...racial inequality bothers me a lot -- in part because it emasculates entire groups of men."

I don't value others on the basis of their "masculinity" or "femininity". But I'm not blind to the fact that most people do view others (and themselves) in this way. So I'll try to tackle this issue from that angle.

Racism does indeed emasculate men -- and it also defeminizes women. At least racism against black American women seems to work that way. For most people, being feminine is about being beautiful and/or sexy. And black women are often portrayed in an asexual way. Even with the Halle Berry and Beyonce explosions (who of course must still meet a strict standard), many people reserve the "feminine" label for women who aren't black. I don't desire to be feminine, but I can see why other women do. It certainly takes a toll on your self-esteem if you're seen as otherwise. And yeah, I see it from a skinny white woman's perspective -- someone who is automatically assumed to be feminine.

I live in Iowa, a state that is about 94% white. While we obviously don't have a lot of black people here, we do have racism. This became more apparent to me when I worked a blue-collar factory job. Some white folks were openly racist; they didn't try to hide it. Then there were the white women who only dated black men. I have no problem with that. But what I do have a problem with is that, while those white women were always quick to defend black men against racism, they hated black women. That is a generalization, of course. But in my workplace, it was painfully true. And what's worse is that those white women really didn't think they were racist. In fact, they thought they were so enlightened.

It seems logical enough that, if you see women as second-class citizens, then racism against black women doesn't matter. It's just the emasculinization of men that counts. I'm sure that's not what the commenter on Adam's blog meant, but it is what some so-called liberal white people think.

The way this admittedly sheltered and sometimes ignorant white person sees racism, is that it's a human rights violation. It takes away your own self, your personhood, your individuality, your dignity. And that affects both women and men equally.

I realize that not everyone in the world is either black or white. I chose to address this in a black/white context because that's all I have observed. I am reminded of this post on Karentainment, where Karen blogs about being attacked for dating a white dude (and is therefore some sort of traitor to Asian men). The comments she had to deal with smack of racism and typical double standards.

[Chocolatesmoothie]

yeah Dawn i agree with what you said all u have to do is look at tht battle of the bods episode from hulu that i posted awhile ago... the most attractive women (who happened to be black) ended up on the bottom pretty much while the plainer looking contestants and this is something that i see happen in mostly all the episodes that i have watched. somehow a bw who is clearly better looking than another woman on the show gets marked below the other woman as being less attractive and its better to me. Like someone will be odd about the woman she is ranked below, like her teeth are messed up or she has really bad breast implants and the bw will STILL be ranked below her, its funny to me.

so yeah and this is what so many non-bp do not understand, especially non-bw. I can't tell you how annoying it is that some non-bw can ONLY see racism when its directed a bm, but can't do the same for a bw. when a bw complains about racism she's just bitter, she has a an attitude, but a bm complains about something and he gets all this sympathy...lol people forget that bw suffered under racism JUST AS MUCH as bm did and they still suffer.

[Dawn]

yes, this is so true, status trumps beauty.  we've talked about this many times in may different ways on here how men will pass up a beautiful black woman to be with a mediocre white or other non black woman, since black is at the low end of the totem pole.  That is why many men will sleep beautiful dark skin black women, but will not pursue a REAL relationship with her.   i've used this analogy before, a beautiful black woman is like a brand new kia or hyundai car.  it may be cute and good, but it is not a mercedes, a mercedes trumps a kia no matter how many miles or how old the mercedes is this is the mediocre white or other non black woman who gets chosen over the beautiful black woman.

NOTE:  i am NOT saying that other races of women do NOT have beauty (i have to clarify this because stupid people will always turn things like this around and want to argue that point and that's NOT what's being said).  i'm saying that EVEN women of other races who are obviously very plain looking can usually get men of any race (especially if she herself is a white woman) over a black woman.

[Chocolatesmoothie]

KOLA BOOF ESSAY ON RACE/BEAUTY

I thought this applied to this topic and I bolded/highlighted a couple paragraphs that I feel are very fitting and need to be read by certain people.

KOLA BOOF ESSAY ON RACE/BEAUTY

First of all...just like "race"--"beauty" is a social construct.    [/color]                                                                                                             
But COLOR is not a social construct.Therefore, before you can understand "beauty"....you must understand "status" and the
fact that STATUS...overrules beauty.
                                                                                                                             
For instance, no matter how beautiful the lips are on Lauryn Hill and Angela Bassett....those lips gain STATUS once you put them on Angelina Jolie.No matter how magnificent and superior Phyllis Yvonne Stickney's rear end is...a smaller version of her rear end is celebrated and gains STATUS once you attach it to Jennifer Lopez.No matter how lovely the "tan" is on Jennifer Beales....that tan aquires STATUS once it appears on a white woman, and is especially valuable....because it's TEMPORARY on a white woman and does not pass into the womb to color the child.  The White-skinned beauty of JAPANESE...is given STATUS and considered superior...although the dark-skinned KOREAN and THAI are in actuality...far more beautiful and better built.
                                                                                                                       
Still, STATUS overrules Beauty.  In communities of Color---Whiteness alone often makes a woman beautiful, no matter how FAT she is, no matter how many teeth are missing or PLAIN she is---whiteness itself is beauty, because it carries the ultimate STATUS.That's Number one.
Toni Morrison said that a "Paradise" or a "Utopia" can only be made into such by defining those things which are to be excluded--therefore making it a paradise.
                                                                                                                             
Those in charge with power and who rule are the architects deciding exactly what the paradise will be, which is why a very dark skinned black woman in EUROPE is considered beautiful, desirable and "visible" in media.....while the opposite is true in the United States, because of rigid STATUS perimeters in America that must adhere to the history and goals of the country.
                                                                                                                             
As a pre-concept related to the outcome of this opinion, please note that "sexism" cannot dominate a society unless the majority of the citizens (both male and female) are...sexist.  Both the father and the mother reinforce, through daily living, the tenets of "sexism", passing it into the children as "acculturation"---thereby making it a mode of thought that is normal, where as the idea of "equality" between sexes is given lip service but is not truly considered...normal. And that is because, most people on both sides are sexists. Not just men. The religions and churches and the Bible itself back up the sexist ideology of the society and confirms that the systematic structures of Patriarchy are not just correct---but are "natural".  Man is to be valued and his humanity is protected....Woman, while loved emotionally, is expendable and her humanity is recognized only as a subtext for his birth.  Everyone in the society, male and female, supports this ideology because it's perceived as the "natural order."
                                                                                                                             
Ditto for White Supremacist Ideology.

America is a nation that originally was supposed to be a "paradise/utopia" for White Europeans and was founded and built on slavery--an institution that was justified through very strict principles of White Supremacist Ideology.  Black African slaves were brought here and deemed to be only 3/5ths of a human being.  A single drop of their blood has the power to compromise whiteness....and because of this, and because White men greatly enjoyed the freedom of being able to rape their property (just as any man would, including the Africans who do the same thing to slaves), the Whites realized that they would have to create a STANDARD by which Whiteness would always be PRO-CREATED and PROTECTED under the normative tenet of "purity". For more on that, just read the Dictionary Definition for Black (evil/ugly) and then read the Dictionary Definition for White (good/clean).This is why, regardless of Sexism, "White Supremacy" benefits White Females just as much (in fact, more) than it benefits White Males.And THE REASON...that White Supremacy benefits White Females more is because in order for a White Male to be born...he can only do it from a White Female.People of color, however, can be born from any female (although, Authentic Black People going by the Pre-Colonial African standard, cannot be born from a Non-African tribe).So this genetic fact forces the White Male to elevate the White Female as the World Standard for Pro-Creation.....because out of her comes....(A) White Males, (B) White Acculturation of all those who born from her, including coloreds.....which in turn, because of the genetic weakness of White Blood, sets her as the ultimate White Power STATUS symbol, being motherseed of the White Race and its only way into existence.
                                                                                                                         
As well.....MARRIAGE and HAVING A MAN....is the highest STATUS for all races of females, for without it----the sexist societies worldwide consider them to be "deformed", and therefore, when a White woman marries out of her race---she is trading one STATUS for another STATUS.On the other side of the Spectrum is The Black Man...who has been conquered and dominated by the White Man (both Arab and European) for so many centuries that the Black Man now has no memory of his worth or beauty---purely as himself. He has been acculturated by his masters and lives in a world where he has very, very little power---except over the Black Women (who create him) and the Black Children (who come from him).Because COLOR is not a social construct----but race is---the Blacker the Black Man's Skin, the more Authentic he is.....then.....the less STATUS he has in a world that agrees that "Whiteness" is normal and superior and more HUMAN than all others.**
                                                                                                                               
Beauty is the second social construct (after race)....it backs up White Supremacy (and this is worldwide, because in Arab Nations, those Orange Skinned Arabs are classified on their identification cards as "White"--the same for Japanese and Chinese and Brazilians and Argentinians and Mexicans. EVERY SOCIETY...has a White Elite at the top that calls itself "White").
                                                                                                                             
If you go to a Black Nation in Africa...and especially visit Black Americans and West Indians...you will find that a "Mulatto" mixed Status Symbol has been created to sit at the TOP of those various people to represent their version of "Whiteness", "the Elite". While the Very darkest charcoal and Blue Black blacks----the Authentic blacks----are relegated to the bottom rung and "disallowed" as the Representative Face to be presented to the world, because the darker they are----the less STATUS they have and the less HUMAN they are considered. 

This is the reason why Black Men will pass over a Beautiful Chocolate Skinned Black Woman to marry an Unattractive, Fat White Woman or an Ugly "High Yellow" Black Woman....because....the lighter the woman's skin is, the lighter the man's children will come out and the more STATUS he will aquire through the woman's Whiteness (regardless of what color she is). No matter how beautiful a very black skinned woman is---her beauty has no STATUS, because her beauty only creates more blackness.
                                                                                                                             
Let's use this example:Vivica Fox is considered a dark skinned woman in America. But if you put her next to Phyllis Yvonne Stickney, Vivica is suddenly 8 shades lighter and has less Africoid facial features. She, therefore, becomes the woman considered more desirable---because she has more STATUS.
                                                                                                                               
Or think of Cicely Tyson's beauty...then think of Diahann Carroll's beauty, and although I personally find Cicely's African beauty exquisite and superior....Americans will find the lighter brown skin and European features/hairstyles of Diahann Carroll to carry more "STATUS".But then add Halle Berry, who is Bi-racial and much lighter than Diahann Carroll or Vivica Fox and has straight hair and facial features that are even less black.....and now she has more STATUS.
                                                                                                                         
The Color Paradigm is leveled almost exclusively towards the WOMEN in the Black and Latino and Asian races----because the men rule the societies and the men do the choosing, contrary to the claims of Matriarchy.
                                                                                                                           
And let me just say that if Matriarchy were really and truly a reality in Africa...then we would not have to get our v*ginas infibulated just to be "marriagable".  The real truth is that Black women do not rule Black Communities, for if they did, then the power of Colorism would be greatly---greatly reduced.The men are usually exempt from the Colorist Caste System (notice that most Black Male Sex Symbols are chocolate and brown with nappy African hair and clearly Black Features---and both the very dark skinned Male and the light skinned Male are DESIRED and considered VALUABLE by the black community). On the other hand, the Dark Skinned Black Woman (the mother of the race and the authentic origin of the race) is almost never embraced as the standard of beauty or desirability and is the Least Valued image in the black community....and this is mainly because she is the one who makes black people BLACK in the first place. It is her womb, genes and especially--her acculturation----that TAKES AWAY the people's STATUS by making them "truly black".
                                                                                                                           
Therefore, a Mulatto or Bi-racial mixed FEMALE is risen as the Standard of Beauty---because she makes the black people LESS BLACK and gives them STATUS by giving them lighter skin, watered down facial features and a straighter texture of hair. She helps to bring "whiteness" to the group....and for this, they appoint her over their real mother.A White Woman can make them even Whiter....thereby delivering even more STATUS.These same exact dynamics are used in Latin cultures, Asian cultures...worldwide. In other words, women are not seeking a "common goal"--that's bullshit. What women are trying to seek is the worldwide Hollywood Goal that they have internalized from more than a century of film, magazine and literary images.
                                                                                                                             
Please notice that before the advent of Silent Films....women were prized for being very round, full figured and brunette......and most people had very LOCAL ideals about what was beautiful, their conclusions reached by their own cultural tastes and traditions and mostly...by their desire to see their own looks reproduced in the offspring of their kind. Which, in actuality, is what real beauty might be.But the Hollywood beauty standard is dictated now to the PLANET via MEDIA.
                                                                                                                           
Mass Media. Which has become the most powerful weapon that America has to charm, solicit and influence the rest of the world in its quest for dominance and survival.White Supremacy is the root and stimulus of that weapon...because the vast majority of the world is colored, and therefore, the Whites must brainwash other races into valuiing and worshipping whiteness----so that they won't want to destroy it, but rather protect and covet it.The One Drop Rule in America is proof of those fears...and as well....validity.
                                                                                                                       
Increasingly, as more and more black men are now allowed to mate outside their race (by white society), there are many Black Women in America who are so dark skinned and African featured that they're not even considered women .....and I've met many, many extremely dark skinned African looking black women who have forced themselves to become lesbians---so that they can know love----and they are devastated by it, but NOBODY...and especially not Black People give a shit.White and other races of Light Skinned Straight Haired women are well aware of these dynamics....and overwhelmingly support them....because this allows the low self-esteem in White and other races of Light Skinned women to be assauged and placated by the self-hatred of Black and other Dark races of men.
                                                                                                                           
It also gives these women a Surplus of available men, and because MARRIAGE and HAVING A MAN is the highest "STATUS" for a woman-----these women trade in their color status to attain the status of marriage/having a man.
                                                                                                                         
In general, White and other races of Light Skinned women do not care, truly, about black people---and especially don't care about black women---and delude themselves into noble, romanticized ideals of "true love", "the evil non-worthy black woman with attitude" and "opposites attracting". In other words, they support and protect the White Supremacist Beauty Aesthetic.....because it benefits and favors them. 
                                                                                                                           
In closing, let me just say:  "Black Is Beautiful".

Kola Boof


me...

so if anyone has similar feelings to the author who wrote the original article in this topic (war between ww/bw) you need to really think hard about why you REALLY have these insecurities and negative perceptions of the black woman.

[Chocolatesmoothie]

that entire article is nothing but anti-black woman racism as far as i'm concerned

[Dawn]

I also think that some people are uncomfortable with black women who are happy and comfortable with themselves. some people expect bw to be angry, insecure, attitude having, weave wearing. When they see someone who is comfortable, happy and really could care less what other people think I think some people are not used to that and they are trying to see "what the catch is" or something.

yep, exactly! 

to top it off, i had an afro, and all 3 of the young women i was with had their own real long hair, and the 2 black/black young women had dark skin.  (my oldest daughter has always had long hair...it was me and my youngest daughter who struggled with growing our hair).

[Chocolatesmoothie]

I also think that some people are uncomfortable with black women who are happy and comfortable with themselves. some people expect bw to be angry, insecure, attitude having, weave wearing. When they see someone who is comfortable, happy and really could care less what other people think I think some people are not used to that and they are trying to see "what the catch is" or something.

[Chocolatesmoothie]

"i remember last year, me, my oldest daughter who is 21, and her two friends, one was a black/black young woman and the other was a biracial black young woman, we were all sitting down on the patio of a restaurant eating mexican food (by the way all 3 of the young women were very attractive and "educated", in fact it was the day before my daughter's college graduation, that is why we were all together)...anyway, "out of the clear blue sky" a black man who was with a white woman stops and says to us "hi, how are you doing?".  we all thought it was weird because we were minding our own business, eating, talk to each other, and we were not even looking their way, that is why it was very strange to us, because he was going "out of his way" to speak to us.  we politely said hello back, then once they walked away, we just all looked at each other very puzzled, that's how much we all felt he went out of his way to speak to us.  we all said, what was that about?"


i wrote about a time a similar thing happened to me in the other topic i posted awhile ago about bm/ww staring at me. I was meeting some friends for sushi and I dressed up to see them, I thought I looked cute and I knew they would dress up too. I encountered a ww/bm couple and I glanced at them casually and kept out their way and stayed on my walk, I was in a very happy mood that day, the sun was shinning and I was feeling really happy for once. Then when I was leaving the bm kept looking my way like he was expecting me to come over and act crazy or something. I'm telling you some people get off on thinking that bw are going to 'snap' at them, some people really find it entertaining when bw get angry for no reason. I try to mind my buisness and keep to myself, i'm sick of people stereotyping and expecting bw to come crazy at the slightest thing like we don't have common sense or know how to act.

[Tyrannosaurus]

Frankly, Choco, I think you need to cut down on linking to racist articles. I've seen way too much anti-black bigotry already and I don't want to be exposed to any more.

[Chocolatesmoothie]

" noticed that she said in her article at the end "And I’m sure they get frustrated but they don’t own these men."  what that sentence says to me is that SHE KNOWS that there is mistreatment of black women that is happening, but she doesn't care.   part of the mistreatment is that the negative stereotypes of black women are allowed to speak louder than the positive images of black women, as well as black women are made to look undesirable by the media.  simply, excluding BEAUTIFUL DARK SKIN black women as the image of black beauty is a part of mistreatment of black women by black media.  when light skin black women are the only representatives of black beauty in pop culture and when the latina takes the place of the black woman as the object of desire of black men, black women by default are being represented as ugly and undesirable.  so yeah, you're damn right black women are frustrated and have every right to be.  because that causes too many black men to simply be with non black women because they think there is something wrong with black women, and it causes other races of men to feel the same way about black women in general.  there is a domino effect, and all of the dominoes are falling on top of black women.  so again, the war is not against black women and white women, it's against the MISTREATMENT of black women...there's a BIG DIFFERENCE."

WOW WELL SAID DAWN! I agree with everything you said and especially this part. I actually clapped like a fool when I read that first statement, EXACTLY DAWN. She doesn't seem to care about the discrimination bw face, the reason is simply because she, herself, is actually perpetuating that injustice with stereotypes such as the ones in this article. She doesn't seem to care though. So that just further proves the point that we're making about being mistreated in the first place.

I would also like to address this quote from the article: "I am a very friendly person but black women never really seemed to be interested in having a friendship with me.  You know that saying, keep your friends close and your enemies closer.  I always felt like they knew of me and who I was and would sometimes even pretend to be friendly, but when it came down to it I was always an arm’s length away.  There was always a wall between us"

I found this statement to be quite abrasive and it also seems VERY biased. So, the author of this article is sititng here complaining about all these black women supposedly harassing her, her whole article is nothing but stereotype after stereotype, then at the end she basically says she doesn't care to know what "frustrations," bw are feeling or why, then there's this odd statement. Now, i don't know her personally, i'm just going off of this article. But going by her article, she seems to have alot of negative stereotypes about bw and she also seems to be a closeminded to be honest. If her attitude in reality is ANYTHING close to her attitude in this post that she did...then honestly it is COMPLETELY  understandable WHY there is a "wall" between her and the bw she supposedly interacts with. In terms of the phony friendliness, that could be true, but it could also maybe be some phoniness on her part as well. She could be projecting her sentiments onto the bw she is interacting with and in return she is getting the phony attitude from the bw she interacts with as well...so that last paragraph on the first page was odd to me...to say the least. It was odd for someone to make those judgmental statements about a black woman's behavior, when her article is full of stereotypes and nastiness in my opinion and her article certainly isn't very "friendly," i mean if that is friendliness...that says something. Then she mentions "keep your friends close, your enemies closer..." now bw and ww are enemies?...Earlier we were at war, now we're apparently enemies??? I'm not enemies with ww I'm enemies w/ morons of all colors, creeds and nationalities. If you're not a moron then we shouldn't have any problems generally speaking.

I have to wonder if bw/ww are supposedly enemies and there is a war, I wonder who she thinks initiated the war and why??? that's what I would like to know...

[Dawn]

First of all, there is nothing wrong with white women who prefer to date black men or black men who prefer to date white women, there is their individual right. As long as they are not hurting anyone else or being rude to other people, its not my right to involve myself in their relationship.

In my experience, most of the black women (and people in general) are of a similar mindset to myself. Many believe it is not their right to involve themselves in the relationship of others and it is ignorant. The black women that the author described in that (in my opinion) were ignorant and it was insulting to me that she associated their behavior (or she seemed to) exclusively with black women. That type of ignorant behavior is NOT limited exclusively to black women and let's NOT pretend that black women are the main antagonists to interracial dating. Please. I hope the author realizes that most (yes most) black women don't care about her interracial relationship. The reason I can "most," is because MOST black women have no idea who she is, who her partner is and are simply living their lives like normal human beings. I detest the notion that black women are "so angry," and irrational that their whole lives somehow revolve around harassing white women and black men. I am not implying that the author is stating that, but I am sick of this stereotype of the angry black woman (sapphire stereotype) being circulated in its various forms. THE ANTAGONISTIC BLACK WOMAN WHO HATES TO SEE WW/BM couples together (to me) is nothing more than a play off of the angry black woman stereotype, which is a play off of the sapphire stereotype. That is what offends me about these type of articles is the fact that they are RIPE WITH STEREOTYPES ABOUT BLACK WOMEN AND NO ONE ELSE. They make black women seem like the instigators, the aggressors and the main antagonists to interracial relationships when, in fact, history and the present day has demonstrated that it is NOT just black women who are the main detractors from interracial relationships, particularly relationships between ww/bm....

AFTERALL, wasn't it a BLACK WOMAN and a white man who made it possible for white women and black men to even date, marry and have casual relationships in the first place?... (Loving v. Virginia) Without a bw, intteracial dating/marriage might still be illegal in over 20 states.. I have biracial relatives (cousins from both ww/bm relationships and bw/wm relationships) in my experience, it was almost NEVER the black family members who disowned their biracial grandchildren or cut off their black sons/ daughters for marrying a white. That is my personal experience, I have bnever known a black mother or grandmother to cut off a son for being with a white woman. I can't speak for other people, but that has been my experience. SO THE STEREOTYPE THAT BW ARE ANTAGONISTIC TOWARDS WW/BM is not true. I know too many counter examples. In a broader sense, in all my studies of black literature, particularly Jim Crow literature and Ida b. Wells writtings, I have NEVER known a black woman to lynch or harass a ww/bm couple the way that racist white men have. It was not bw parading through people's neighborhoods burning crosses and hanging nooses because a bm was dating a ww. In fact, I have read more times than not when a ww did date a bm and her white family  DISOWNED her, it was frequently the BLACK family, mainly the black mothers and grandmothers who welcomed the white woman into the black community and helped care for the grandchildren and supported them....So I do not understand where the stereotype of bw as the main antagonists to ww/bm came from...I don't get it. If you were going to stereotype anyone as being the main antagonists against ww/bm relationship shouldn't it be racist white men?? You shouldn't stereotype anyone, but wouldn't it be more logical to put it on RACIST WHITE MEN, since they were the ones making the anti-miscegenation laws, and lynching bm for looking at ww etc...?? And wasn't it a WHITE MALE judge who recently REFUSED to grant an interracial couple (composed of a ww/bm) a marriage license SOLELY because they were interracial??....IT WASN'T A BLACK WOMAN WHO DID THAT, IT WAS A WHITE MAN. You'd think that would be the more logical stereotype, but somehow it gets pinned on black women again...

I am tired of people feeling they haev the right to stereotype black women and portay bw in this ignorant and demeaning manner. As if a bw doesn't haev enough class and dignity to know how to behave. It's ignorant to harass someone just because you disagree w/ their relationship. that is ignorant and frankly it's ignorant to stereotype bw as being that ignorant and I am sick of that. I'm sick of the angry bw stereotype i'm sick of the ignorant bw stereotype.

To me that article was nothing more than stereotypes, the message i gathered was that bw were the main detractors from interracial relationship, if that wasn't what the author was trying to express, she should have clarified that better and SPECIFIED that she not talking about ALL or even MOST black women because I certainly didn't get that from her writting. That is what offended me about that article.

Also, I would like to add that prior to coming on youtube and seeing the racism and hatred directed towards black women BY SOME black men who exclusively dated ww, I never thought twice about interracial relationships. Not ww/bm nor wm/bw.  I only started to become CONCERNED about the reason SOME, SOME bm date ww when I heard the vitriol hatred, racism and colorism on youtube, in the media and in SOME personal instances. That is when it became evident that not every single bm  who is in an interracial relationship is in that relationship for the right reasons. SOME, SOME bm (and i'm only speaking about the racist ones) get into interracial relationships because they feel that black women are INFERIOR to white women and they have racist tendencies against black women. THESE PARTICULAR TYPE of bm tend to be the ones who stereotype bw, demean them and have colorist practices (such as Chad Ochocinco Johnson). Those are the type of bm who bother me. The bm who just happen to meet and fall in love with a white woman and who can still respect, value and see BW as individuals, I am cool with. I have nothing against them and there is really nothing to be against, they just love who they love and that is their right.

Another thing that bothers me is that I notice that SOME, SOME   white women who date bm also see bw as INFERIOR and they date bm as way to express their sexual and social superiority to bw. THESE PARTICULAR TYPE of ww tend to be the ones who stereotype bw, demean them and have racist practices towards blacks in general ( such Susan Crain Baikos). The ww who just happen to meet and fall in love with a bm and who can still respect, value and see BW as individuals, I am cool with. I have nothing against them and there is really nothing to be against, they just love who they love and that is their right.

Finally, some of these racist interracial couplings seem to THRIVE OFF of the "perceived" attention they get (supposedly) from these angry, bitter bw. It is almost like some of these particular type of RACIST couples enjoy getting the negative attention (supposedly) from these angry, bitter bw. So, it is sometimes easier for these type of racist interracial couples to make a situation where a bw really was not causing any harm to that particular couple seem more antagonistic than she was. For example, "mean looks," will come up when there was no mean look, the bw was just looking normal or minding her buisness. eyerolls will come up when really the bw was just blinking her eyes...silly things that like. These type of couples seem to thrive off of the negative attention and its as if the angry bw stereotype is so prevalent in their mind that they are subconsciously LOOKING and waiting to encounter and angry bw and when they don't any normal bw becomes that angry, bitter black woman stereotype they have in their mind. That is what concerns me and that is why, I try to go out of my way to not be that stereotype. I mean i fa bw just blinks her eyes or looks casually...all of a sudden "she's just hating," "she's jealous," when really most of the time the woman probably doesn't care about their relationship...

So these stereotypes need to stop and people need to STOP acting like bw are the main antagonists towards interracial relationship and people need to stop disseminating the stereotype that all or "most" bw are angry and antagonistic towards ww and bm. STOP IT PLEASE!

she did say - "I found that some black women were the ones with the biggest problem with me dating interracially and made me the most uncomfortable."

my response to that is i cannot imagine THAT many black women are approaching her (or the black men she's with); therefore, she needs to feel uncomfortable.  like chocolate said, she doesn't even look their way purposely because she knows it will be taken that she's jealous and an angry black woman.  i do the exact same thing, and every single black woman i have ever talked to or addressed this subject online says the same thing, they don't even look their way on purpose.

now, i'm not going to say that no black woman has never given her any problems, but i will say that pretty much unfortunately goes with dating outside of your race.  every person who does is subject to some harassment, and stares....and sometimes even violence (which no one with any sense will agree to).  i have experienced hate, harassment and stares myself, multiple times, i've had bm and ww women staring at me when they are together, i've had a group of white women drag a white man away from me when i was simply dancing with him (we had no type of relationship going on), i had a white woman (italian) basically tell me that my mixed race boyfriend was too good for me because my hair was in an afro...lol, i've had latin women stare at me when with my non black dominican, ex boyfriend, and i've had black men stare at me at times when i've been with non black men, and make little comments when walking by, and one of the most recent times that has happened i was simply talking to a white man FRIEND at the grocery store.  so it goes both ways, but i have never thought that there was a "WAR GOING ON between black women and white women"  REALLY?   those are some pretty strong words.  i don't hate ww or wm.  some of the most beautiful people (on the inside) i've met in my life have some white friends i've had, and on the flip side, i've met some evil black people in my life as well.  i look at everyone as an individual.

what there is a WAR ON is the MISTREATMENT of black women in general by all groups of people.  that's what's going on.

i noticed that she said in her article at the end "And I’m sure they get frustrated but they don’t own these men."  what that sentence says to me is that SHE KNOWS that there is mistreatment of black women that is happening, but she doesn't care.  part of the mistreatment is that the negative stereotypes of black women are allowed to speak louder than the positive images of black women, as well as black women are made to look undesirable by the media.  simply, excluding BEAUTIFUL DARK SKIN black women as the image of black beauty is a part of mistreatment of black women by black media.  when light skin black women are the only representatives of black beauty in pop culture and when the latina takes the place of the black woman as the object of desire of black men, black women by default are being represented as ugly and undesirable.  so yeah, you're damn right black women are frustrated and have every right to be.  because that causes too many black men to simply be with non black women because they think there is something wrong with black women, and it causes other races of men to feel the same way about black women in general.  there is a domino effect, and all of the dominoes are falling on top of black women.  so again, the war is not against black women and white women, it's against the MISTREATMENT of black women...there's a BIG DIFFERENCE.

finally, since she says that she gets the most hate from black women...perhaps, just perhaps, she's not personally experiencing much hate from white men, because she is considered an undesirable white woman by them.  if that is the case, they are glad to get rid of you.  i bet she never looked at it that way before, huh?

[Dawn]

THIS IS A VENT TOPIC PROCEED WITH CAUTION!

Here is an article by a ww about her negative experiences with bw: http://iswirl.info/2010/08/the-war-between-black-women-and-white-women/2/#


i would like to say that there is no war between ww/bw. There is a war between ignorant people of all races/genders and some black women who are the target of their racism. As much as I dislike people who think they are superior to black women due to their skin color, I do NOT dislike ww who like/prefer bm or who marry bm. If you are a woman who is white and you happen to fall in love with a black woman, that is great. That has nothing to do with me. The only thing that bothers me is THE RACISM that some people have towards bw. If you are a ww who is with a bm just because you like him as an individual and you just see eachother as equals and love eachother that is fine. If you are a racist and you dislike bw and date bm as a way to express your "superiority" to bw, then that is something totally different isn't it.

So, I am getting kinda sick of the stereotype of bw just being angry for no apparent reason towards ww who date bm. Like, its getting really tired. As much as I may complain about racism towards bw on here, I have never harassed a bm with a ww, I have never given a mean look intentionally to anyone. I have never lynched anyone for being w/ a ww etc...so i don't understand why bw have this reputation for being so "jealous" and vicious towards ww with bm...i really don't lol. LOL

In fact whenever i see a ww/bm couple I usually am so self-conscious that they'll think im trying to act crazy towards them that I try to not even make eye contact cuz I'm scared they're gonna think i have an attitude just cuz my eyes see them like they see everyone else...its funny.

i agree.

i know most black women are not going around "snapping" when they see black men with other women.  if that were the case we would all see it all of the time because it's common to see black men with non black women.  if sure there are some who do (just like some other people do too, such as other bm, other ww, and wm) when they see those couples together.

i remember last year, me, my oldest daughter who is 21, and her two friends, one was a black/black young woman and the other was a biracial black young woman, we were all sitting down on the patio of a restaurant eating mexican food (by the way all 3 of the young women were very attractive and "educated", in fact it was the day before my daughter's college graduation, that is why we were all together)...anyway, "out of the clear blue sky" a black man who was with a white woman stops and says to us "hi, how are you doing?".  we all thought it was weird because we were minding our own business, eating, talk to each other, and we were not even looking their way, that is why it was very strange to us, because he was going "out of his way" to speak to us.  we politely said hello back, then once they walked away, we just all looked at each other very puzzled, that's how much we all felt he went out of his way to speak to us.  we all said, what was that about?

i think it was one of three reasons, but i don't know which one it was:

1.  we weren't paying any attention to them, so he (they) were testing us to see if we were going to flip out because he was with someone white...lol.

2.  he was attracted to one or all of us and was trying to flirt with us even right in front of the white woman.

3.  he was not a self hating black man, and wanted to make it clear that just because i'm with a white woman, does not mean that i hate black women.

whatever, the reason was, we black women represented our race/gender very well.  i think how we acted was very normal to how most black women would have acted.

[Chocolatesmoothie]

bw have good reason 2 be mad though its true showing anger just makes if worst cuz than it comes off as i guess its true what they say about them, i always read sum non black/mixed women thoughts (that has a black man) on bw and they always say their attitude or they're insecure or sumthing though i know they really just dont care or they cant see the full picture from the outside looking in. this white beauty standard is the main problem though and self hate we have for each other and ourselves, its funny i hear bw say black men dont like us cuz they hate themselves and every black rapper and dude i know that has a luv for being black love black women like myself, as i really look at it most thing not all whta bw say is the problem be right on point

thank you for your comment soul, but the bottom line is REGARDLESS OF WHY a bm/ww are in a relationship, is not my concern or any other black woman's. We have all talked about beauty standards, colorism, racism and the history between whites/blacks in this country. I'm sure we all know that those things can play a role in the perception of interracial relationships, it can also play a role in interracial relationships itself. However, whether a bm is in an interracial relationship for honorable reasons and dishonorable reasons is still NOT THE CONCERN OF BW OR ANYONE ELSE. It is not black women's job to convince a racist/colorist bm that his reasons for entering into an interracial relationship are wrong. It is not the job of bw to involve themselves in the lives of self-hating bm or to educated racist ww about the role that history, racism and colorism can play IN the decisions of SOME people to enter into an interracial relationship. bw, you are not responsible for anyone's behavior but your own. If a bm is racist/colorist and wants to exclusively date ww due to his racist/colorist tendencies...like it or not that's still his right. He can date who he wants for whatever reason he wants and that's really not our problem as bw. As long as we're doing the right things as individuals that is all that really matters. As long as the man or woman is not hurting anyone else w/ their decision, they can hold whatever stereotypical views of bw that they want, now that doesn't mean that we can't RESPECTFULLY challenge their views, but at the end of the day...they're gonna do what they're gonna do and bw really shouldn't be concerned with their decision.

Bw don't have to waste their breath or bust a blood vessel over people who have those type of views, we can discuss and challenge those views respectfully and we can voice our opinions, buts its STILL not our job to interfere into people's relationships. So even if you KNOW that a man is colorist or racist and he openly displays, demonstrates or voices his disgust for bw (yung bergs, ochocincos etc...)  its still not our job or right to involve ourselves in their relationships. as long as they are not hurting anyone physically, we have no right to stand inbetween him and his choice of mate. So there's really no need to ever pull someone away from someone at a dance or fight w/someone or push someone just because you disagree w/ their reason for dating someone (i highly doubt most bw even do this but its worth mentioning) there's NEVER an excuse for that, ever. Unless you are defending yourself from another physical attack ofcourse. You can disagree to an extent, (within the right setting/context) that is also your right, if you are respectful, but at the end of the day people are going to do what they are going to do. don't lose sleep over it.

Bw should continue to defend themselves against these type of racist stereotypes. Black women should continue to challenge this racist/colorist system, which puts black women at the bottom of the totem pole etc...but just remember at the end of the day we're not responsible for other people's behavior we're only responsible for our individual behavior, so behave well.

[Chocolatesmoothie]

btw I am not saying there there are not SOME bw who dislike seeing ww/bm, there are. but there are also white men, black men, and white women who dislike seeing ww/bm, so don't put it solely on anyone group. There are also white women, white men, black men and black women who dislike seeing black women/ wm couples as well. So, its not as if bw in interracial relationships don't receive "hostility," from other people as well.

[Chocolatesmoothie]

Also, one more thing I want to add. As for these type of racist interracial couples, there is nothing I personally can do to change their assumptions, if you enter into a relationship (any type of relationship) for the wrong reasons that relationship most likely is not going to thrive.  If you base your relationship off of superficial things, like SOLELY skin color, money, stereotypes or anything else, if you enter a relationship with a bunch of negative feelings towards a certain group of people...you're only going to be hurting yourself in the end. so that's something to remember.

If you just love the person you are with, no matter what color and your relationship is based in good values (you just happen to have different backgrounds or skin color) you should have no problem having a healthy marriage or relationship because you're in it for the right reason. Generally  speaking the people who enter relationships for the right reasons are usually the ones who have longest and healthiest relationships anyway. In my experience, these people rarely have racist views towards others. They just respect eachother and live their lives.

[Chocolatesmoothie]

First of all, there is nothing wrong with white women who prefer to date black men or black men who prefer to date white women, there is their individual right. As long as they are not hurting anyone else or being rude to other people, its not my right to involve myself in their relationship.

In my experience, most of the black women (and people in general) are of a similar mindset to myself. Many believe it is not their right to involve themselves in the relationship of others and it is ignorant. The black women that the author described in that (in my opinion) were ignorant and it was insulting to me that she associated their behavior (or she seemed to) exclusively with black women. That type of ignorant behavior is NOT limited exclusively to black women and let's NOT pretend that black women are the main antagonists to interracial dating. Please. I hope the author realizes that most (yes most) black women don't care about her interracial relationship. The reason I can "most," is because MOST black women have no idea who she is, who her partner is and are simply living their lives like normal human beings. I detest the notion that black women are "so angry," and irrational that their whole lives somehow revolve around harassing white women and black men. I am not implying that the author is stating that, but I am sick of this stereotype of the angry black woman (sapphire stereotype) being circulated in its various forms. THE ANTAGONISTIC BLACK WOMAN WHO HATES TO SEE WW/BM couples together (to me) is nothing more than a play off of the angry black woman stereotype, which is a play off of the sapphire stereotype. That is what offends me about these type of articles is the fact that they are RIPE WITH STEREOTYPES ABOUT BLACK WOMEN AND NO ONE ELSE. They make black women seem like the instigators, the aggressors and the main antagonists to interracial relationships when, in fact, history and the present day has demonstrated that it is NOT just black women who are the main detractors from interracial relationships, particularly relationships between ww/bm....

AFTERALL, wasn't it a BLACK WOMAN and a white man who made it possible for white women and black men to even date, marry and have casual relationships in the first place?... (Loving v. Virginia) Without a bw, intteracial dating/marriage might still be illegal in over 20 states.. I have biracial relatives (cousins from both ww/bm relationships and bw/wm relationships) in my experience, it was almost NEVER the black family members who disowned their biracial grandchildren or cut off their black sons/ daughters for marrying a white. That is my personal experience, I have bnever known a black mother or grandmother to cut off a son for being with a white woman. I can't speak for other people, but that has been my experience. SO THE STEREOTYPE THAT BW ARE ANTAGONISTIC TOWARDS WW/BM is not true. I know too many counter examples. In a broader sense, in all my studies of black literature, particularly Jim Crow literature and Ida b. Wells writtings, I have NEVER known a black woman to lynch or harass a ww/bm couple the way that racist white men have. It was not bw parading through people's neighborhoods burning crosses and hanging nooses because a bm was dating a ww. In fact, I have read more times than not when a ww did date a bm and her white family  DISOWNED her, it was frequently the BLACK family, mainly the black mothers and grandmothers who welcomed the white woman into the black community and helped care for the grandchildren and supported them....So I do not understand where the stereotype of bw as the main antagonists to ww/bm came from...I don't get it. If you were going to stereotype anyone as being the main antagonists against ww/bm relationship shouldn't it be racist white men?? You shouldn't stereotype anyone, but wouldn't it be more logical to put it on RACIST WHITE MEN, since they were the ones making the anti-miscegenation laws, and lynching bm for looking at ww etc...?? And wasn't it a WHITE MALE judge who recently REFUSED to grant an interracial couple (composed of a ww/bm) a marriage license SOLELY because they were interracial??....IT WASN'T A BLACK WOMAN WHO DID THAT, IT WAS A WHITE MAN. You'd think that would be the more logical stereotype, but somehow it gets pinned on black women again...

I am tired of people feeling they haev the right to stereotype black women and portay bw in this ignorant and demeaning manner. As if a bw doesn't haev enough class and dignity to know how to behave. It's ignorant to harass someone just because you disagree w/ their relationship. that is ignorant and frankly it's ignorant to stereotype bw as being that ignorant and I am sick of that. I'm sick of the angry bw stereotype i'm sick of the ignorant bw stereotype.

To me that article was nothing more than stereotypes, the message i gathered was that bw were the main detractors from interracial relationship, if that wasn't what the author was trying to express, she should have clarified that better and SPECIFIED that she not talking about ALL or even MOST black women because I certainly didn't get that from her writting. That is what offended me about that article.

Also, I would like to add that prior to coming on youtube and seeing the racism and hatred directed towards black women BY SOME black men who exclusively dated ww, I never thought twice about interracial relationships. Not ww/bm nor wm/bw.  I only started to become CONCERNED about the reason SOME, SOME bm date ww when I heard the vitriol hatred, racism and colorism on youtube, in the media and in SOME personal instances. That is when it became evident that not every single bm  who is in an interracial relationship is in that relationship for the right reasons. SOME, SOME bm (and i'm only speaking about the racist ones) get into interracial relationships because they feel that black women are INFERIOR to white women and they have racist tendencies against black women. THESE PARTICULAR TYPE of bm tend to be the ones who stereotype bw, demean them and have colorist practices (such as Chad Ochocinco Johnson). Those are the type of bm who bother me. The bm who just happen to meet and fall in love with a white woman and who can still respect, value and see BW as individuals, I am cool with. I have nothing against them and there is really nothing to be against, they just love who they love and that is their right.

Another thing that bothers me is that I notice that SOME, SOME   white women who date bm also see bw as INFERIOR and they date bm as way to express their sexual and social superiority to bw. THESE PARTICULAR TYPE of ww tend to be the ones who stereotype bw, demean them and have racist practices towards blacks in general ( such Susan Crain Baikos). The ww who just happen to meet and fall in love with a bm and who can still respect, value and see BW as individuals, I am cool with. I have nothing against them and there is really nothing to be against, they just love who they love and that is their right.

Finally, some of these racist interracial couplings seem to THRIVE OFF of the "perceived" attention they get (supposedly) from these angry, bitter bw. It is almost like some of these particular type of RACIST couples enjoy getting the negative attention (supposedly) from these angry, bitter bw. So, it is sometimes easier for these type of racist interracial couples to make a situation where a bw really was not causing any harm to that particular couple seem more antagonistic than she was. For example, "mean looks," will come up when there was no mean look, the bw was just looking normal or minding her buisness. eyerolls will come up when really the bw was just blinking her eyes...silly things that like. These type of couples seem to thrive off of the negative attention and its as if the angry bw stereotype is so prevalent in their mind that they are subconsciously LOOKING and waiting to encounter and angry bw and when they don't any normal bw becomes that angry, bitter black woman stereotype they have in their mind. That is what concerns me and that is why, I try to go out of my way to not be that stereotype. I mean i fa bw just blinks her eyes or looks casually...all of a sudden "she's just hating," "she's jealous," when really most of the time the woman probably doesn't care about their relationship...

So these stereotypes need to stop and people need to STOP acting like bw are the main antagonists towards interracial relationship and people need to stop disseminating the stereotype that all or "most" bw are angry and antagonistic towards ww and bm. STOP IT PLEASE!

[Chocolatesmoothie]

okay now that I am not as sleepy as I was last night, I can voice my distaste for articles, such as these a bit more adequately.

[Soul]

bw have good reason 2 be mad though its true showing anger just makes if worst cuz than it comes off as i guess its true what they say about them, i always read sum non black/mixed women thoughts (that has a black man) on bw and they always say their attitude or they're insecure or sumthing though i know they really just dont care or they cant see the full picture from the outside looking in. this white beauty standard is the main problem though and self hate we have for each other and ourselves, its funny i hear bw say black men dont like us cuz they hate themselves and every black rapper and dude i know that has a luv for being black love black women like myself, as i really look at it most thing not all whta bw say is the problem be right on point

[Chocolatesmoothie]

im sick of people making bw out to be irrationally angry at ww...and making it seem like bw are just angry and bitter for no reason.

[Chocolatesmoothie]

THIS IS A VENT TOPIC PROCEED WITH CAUTION!

Here is an article by a ww about her negative experiences with bw: http://iswirl.info/2010/08/the-war-between-black-women-and-white-women/2/#


i would like to say that there is no war between ww/bw. There is a war between ignorant people of all races/genders and some black women who are the target of their racism. As much as I dislike people who think they are superior to black women due to their skin color, I do NOT dislike ww who like/prefer bm or who marry bm. If you are a woman who is white and you happen to fall in love with a black man, that is great. That has nothing to do with me. The only thing that bothers me is THE RACISM that some people have towards bw. If you are a ww who is with a bm just because you like him as an individual and you just see eachother as equals and love eachother that is fine. If you are a racist and you dislike bw and date bm as a way to express your "superiority" to bw, then that is something totally different isn't it.

So, I am getting kinda sick of the stereotype of bw just being angry for no apparent reason towards ww who date bm. Like, its getting really tired. As much as I may complain about racism towards bw on here, I have never harassed a bm with a ww, I have never given a mean look intentionally to anyone. I have never lynched anyone for being w/ a ww etc...so i don't understand why bw have this reputation for being so "jealous" and vicious towards ww with bm...i really don't lol. LOL

In fact whenever i see a ww/bm couple I usually am so self-conscious that they'll think im trying to act crazy towards them that I try to not even make eye contact cuz I'm scared they're gonna think i have an attitude just cuz my eyes see them like they see everyone else...its funny.